A recent interview with political activist Srđa Popović, a leader of the movement that overthrew Serbian dictator Slobodan Milošević in 2000, is heartening to anybody who fears civil war in the U.S.

And the threat is real. The Trump government deploys ICE raids against peaceful U.S. residents and citizens. It deploys the military against people it claims, without evidence, are narcoterrorists. Trump supporters staged an unsuccessful violent insurrection against Congress Jan. 6, 2021. A large minority of young Republican political staffers in Washington D.C. express Nazi views.

American citizens are getting fed up — what happens when they fight back?

I’m not quite old enough to remember the riots in U.S. cities in the 1960s, and hundreds of domestic terrorist bombings in the 1970s. Of course I do remember the 1992 Los Angeles riots.

To be clear, I am not advocating violent resistance. I fear it, both for myself and for the country I love. Violence inevitably creates suffering and misery.

Forunately, Popović spells out another solution, how tyrants can be deposed without resorting to violence. Indeed, nonviolent revolutions are more effective than their bloody alternatives, Popović said.

Research at Harvard confirms the greater effectiveness of nonviolent resistance compared with violence.

Popović appeared on the Revolution.social podcast, hosted by Rabble, aka Evan Henshaw-Plath, Twitter’s first employee. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

“Leaders need to figure out that democracy is like love,” Popović said. “You need to make it every day. This is not something that is given to you [that should be taken] for granted. You need to participate daily in keeping your governments accountable, from the level of President to the level of the school.”

After Milošević’s fall, Popović briefly pursued a career in Serbian politics, and then established the Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies (CANVAS) in 2003. “CANVAS has worked with pro-democracy activists from more than 50 countries, promoting the use of non-violent resistance in achieving political and social goals,” according to Wikipedia. In 2015, he co-authored: “Blueprint for Revolution: How to Use Rice Pudding, Lego Men, and Other Non-Violent Techniques to Galvanize Communities, Overthrow Dictators, or Simply Change the World."

The revolution against Milošević’s operated in the late 1990s, the era before social media, when revolutionary social movements communicated by putting up fliers, going on the radio, setting up pirate radio stations and organizing in the streets, like Tahrir Square in Egypt and Occupy Wall Street. But since then Popović has studied how to use social media and other modern tools to facilitate movements.

Popović’s expertise isn’t limited to revolutions. He discusses tools to facilitate any kind of social change — preserving democracy, open societies and resisting the rise of authoritarianism.

Popović’s origin story

Speaking slowly in a beautiful baritone, with a delightful Central European accent, Popović gives his personal history, and the recent history of Serbia. He said he grew up in “a beautiful country called Yugoslavia,” which later split into six countries in a civil war, including Serbia.

Popović has a dry, deadpan sense of humor. He delivers jokes matter-of-factly.

“At the age of 17, I thought the activism is for old ladies fighting for the dog’s rights, or something very exotic.” Instead, he studied biology and played bass guitar in a rock band he describes as “the pathetic version of Sisters of Mercy.”

He became an accidental activist, like most of the people he has met during his activist career.

Milošević came to power in 1989 and wrecked the country, bringing 100% hyperinflation in a single day. Popović joined a resistance movement that eventually led to Milošević’s ouster.

The revolution is chronicled in a documentary, “Bringing Down a Dictator," available for free in 36 languages, courtesy of a wealthy benefactor.

How do nonviolent social movements succeed?

Situations everywhere are different. Fighting a corrupt school board in Nashville, Tennessee, is different from fighting the Iranian regime. but the principles and tools are very similar, Popović said.

First, movements need a plan, a vision for not just overthrowing the dictator but how to establish democracy. Otherwise, you end up like Egypt, which successfully ousted Hosni Mubarak, who was replaced by an even more repressive government, Popović said.

“You need to know what you want first. Instead of just being pissed off with how the situation is, you need to formulate the change, which is called the vision of tomorrow,” Popović said.

Vision is where the Democratic Party today falls short. When the day comes that we oust the Republican Party from national dominance and Democrats control all three branches of government … then what? Do we just put the corporate Democrats back in power and roll things back to where they were in 2024? Do we institute universal healthcare, free public education, a national minimum wage, a jobs guarantee and robust industrial policy? Being anti-Trump is necessary for victory, but it’s nowhere near enough.

Additionally, you need a strategy for staying nonviolent.

“Nonviolent discipline is one of the of the key elements of success of these movements. Nonviolent movements are twice more likely, historically, to succeed than those that are throwing molotovs,” Popović said.

Successful movements need unity between different groups. “That very often means talking to the people you disagree with,” Popović said. Successful movements were unlikely coalitions of weird partners, The suffragette movement, which won women the right to vote in the U.S., included radical feminists, but also conservative church women who were trying to stop their husbands from drinking,

“They had this weird coalition between conservative churches and liberal woman that decided together they had a mutual interest that gave them the vote,” Popović said.

Polish liberation from the Soviet Union was led by blue-collar shipyard workers, allied with urban intelligentsia and the Roman Catholic Church — not really the kinds of people you’d expect to have beers together, Popović said.

“The key here is, if you want to be successful, you need to move into [the] mainstream. Take a look at the environmental movement. It started as a bunch of hippies tying themselves to the fences of military bases in [the] 60s. It ended up with the Environmental Protection Agency,” Popović said.

He added, “Like football — which Americans wrongly call ‘soccer’ — you want to control the middle field.”

Social media is not enough

That’s where social media comes in, because people spend a lot of time online. But it’s only “the tip of the iceberg,” Popović said.

Social media have made political movements today different from decades past. Today, they coalesce around trigger events, like the death of George Floyd, Popović said.

Movements need to win support from institutions — which Popović calls “pillars.” The Martin Luther King Jr.-led bus boycott in Montgomery, Alabama, worked because it cost bus companies money. Black people were far more likely to ride buses than whites — bus companies depended on their business. Pressuring politicians failed to defeat segregation because racist politicians knew they could continue to get elected. Pressuring business worked because racist business owners cared more about making money than about white supremacy.

“You don’t have to convince the business community or the bus owners that they should no longer believe in segregation. You just have to make the cost of segregation higher than the cost of keeping it going,” Popović said.

Social movements need to focus on issues that voters care about. Harvey Milk was a San Francisco politician who was a pioneering hero for gay and lesbian rights — but he didn’t run for office on those issues; he ran by looking respectable and promising to stop people leaving dog poop on the ground. Because nobody wants to step in dog poop, no matter what their sexual orientation or political beliefs.

“He didn’t abandon his queerness or anything else, no — but he figured out what the leverage points were,” Popović said.

Getting security forces onboard

Getting support from the police and military is another important step. “One of the final things that happens is that when a regime collapses, the police and military say, ‘I’m not going to do this anymore,'” The Bashar al-Assad regime in Syria was one of the most powerful regimes in the world and it collapsed abruptly, because the police just stopped believing.

Today’s autocratic regimes succeed by making people apathetic, atomizing people, and persuading people there is nothing worth fighting for. Vladimir Putin doesn’t convince people that Russia is a paradise, he just needs to persuade people that democracy doesn’t work and democracies are just as bad as Russia and everything is controlled by conspiracies and the Deep State, Popović said.

Intriguingly, Popović is an advocate of Bitcoin, cryptocurrency and blockchain. I need to think more about that — until now, I have thought of Bitcioon and crypto as a massive scam, useful only for financial speculation, bribery and crime. But Popović points out that crypto can be effective in circumventing authoritarian control of financial institutions, which control is used to stifle opposition movements by depriving them of funds and access to banking. Bitcoin moves money into Burma and exile societies in Thailand, he said, also noting the potential of open sources and blockchain to ensure free and fair elections.

Popović, who now lives in Colorado, talks about how democracy and social change applies to local movements, like schools and roads.

Humor is a powerful tool for social change.

Humor comes naturally to Serbs, Popović said. For example, when Serbia was obsessed wth a solar eclipse, the resistance there built a giant cardboard telescope that it carried through the streets, and when you looked in the end you saw a picture of Milošević’s head as a falling star.

The telescope “was four meters long, it was hell to carry and it was looking like it was made by an 11-year-old,” Popović said. But hundreds of people lined up to look through the telescope, and the stunt attracted coverage from international news media. “It’s so photogenic, and if you’re a journalist, this is what you want,” Popović said.

In another act of civil disobedience, an artist built a barrel with Milošević’s face on it, and they put it in the main shopping district, and let passers-by deposit coins to get baseball bats to hit the barrel. Within fifteen minutes, 200 people lined up with their shopping bags to play the game. Police got the order to stop it, but there wasn’t anything to do other than arrest shoppers.

Popović calls this “dilemna activism,” becasuse it puts the regime in a dilemma. If they let the activism go, they look weak, and if they crack down, they look stupid. And cracking down on comic protests deflates police morale; they signed up to protect and serve, not to arrest shoppers whacking at a barrel with a baseball bat like at a carnival game.

“Humor breaks fear,” and it also breaks apathy, Popović said.

For more on the power of humor to defeat dictators, Popović recommends a free book, “Pranksters vs. Autocrats”

And finally, resistance movements need to look cool.

“The last thing: one of the reasons when movements become successful is when they become cool. Everybody wants to be around the cool people. Everybody wants to be part of something cool. What’s more cool than using humor?” Popović said.